Howard Griswold Conference Call

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Howard Griswold Conference Call—Thursday, January 15, 2009


Howard Griswold Conference calls:

218-844-3388 pin 966771# (6 mutes & un-mutes),

Thursday’s at 8 p.m., Eastern Time.

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Conference Call is simulcast on:

Starting in the second hour at 9 p.m.

Note: there is a hydrate water call Monday’s, same time and number and pin #.

Howard’s home number: 302-875-2653 (between 9:30, a.m, and 7:00, p.m.)

Mickey’s debt collection call is 8:00 p.m., Eastern Time, Wednesday night. The number is 712 – 432 – 8773 and the pin number is 947975#.

All correspondence to:

Gemini Investment Research Group, POB 398, Delmar, Del. 19940

(do not address mail to ‘Howard Griswold’ since Howard has not taken up residence in that mailbox and since he’s on good terms with his wife he isn’t likely to in the foreseeable future.)

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and/or Toll-Free 1-877-544-4718 (24 Hours F.A.Q. line)

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Often you can find a transcript or a partial one for the week’s call at the following website:


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You can use the *6 button on your phone or use the phone’s mute button

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Note, on October 30th someone left the phone un-muted and coupled television audio into the phone making the conference call conversations very difficult.

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Note: the telephone lines are usually quite noisy and therefore it would be prudent to slow your speech down otherwise your words and meaning will be lost.

Suggestion to everyone (even Howard):

Get a phone with a privacy or mute button. This is much more convenient than star-6 and more rapid to use. It can also be used as a cough button since it can be used rapidly. Try it, you’ll like it.



[Howard] Tonight I was going to talk about something that one of our people mentioned a week or two ago on our call and that is not the 1099OID form and some of the rhetoric you hear about that. Now this is a good form to use properly the way we discussed it the way the fellow that used it the first time and wrote an article about it, explained it. You give it to the judge and tell him to fill it out. But one of our people—and I don’t like giving out names because then you’re liable to call them and bug them and a lot of these people are not available to be bugged so I won’t give out their names—but one of the good hardy souls that works in this kind of work said something about doing a mortgage foreclosure that what he’s been doing is filing a 1099C form and I didn’t even know there was a 1099C form. I know of a 1099A, I know of a 1099B and I know of a 1099OID but I didn’t know that there was a 1099C form. Now, apparently with all these 1099 forms and a whole lot of other forms, today, to do with IRS they’ve gone to this ridiculous piece of junk you call a computer and the one that they have on the computer is not the one that they will accept. So you can’t download it off the computer to fill it out and send it in. That’s not an acceptable one because they now scan the forms into their computer and there are only certain forms that are scannable and that’s the ones that they will mail to you. So, the first thing that I found related to any of this kind of activity is a little notice from the IRS that says ‘attention, this form is provided for informational purposes only.’ That’s the one on the computer. ‘Copy A appears in red similar to the official IRS form. Do not file Copy A off the computer with the IRS. The official printed version of this IRS form is scannable. The one on the computer is not. While the on-line version of it printed from this website—that’s the IRS’ website—is not scanable. And a penalty of $50 per information return may be imposed for filing forms that cannot be scanned.’ If you download it from the computer and use that form you may be fined $50 for each form that you file. If you want the proper forms—and Dana just mentioned it; he got in touch with them and they asked him, ‘how many do you want; you want one or you want twenty-five?’ They’ll send you as many as you want. I don’t know how long that’ll go on and I wouldn’t guarantee that there won’t be a stop put to this because these kinds of things are going to cause a tremendous uproar in the way government functions and in the way these banks can get away with what they’re doing and in the way lawyers can go into court and successfully do foreclosures or debt collection of any kind. This is really going to disrupt their debt collection. This 1099OID is starting to disrupt it. When you give it to a government official or a banker and tell them to fill it out and send it in and notify the IRS like Dana said he did that you’ve given it to them and it’s their duty to fill it out and we’ve discussed that. The information on that can be found in the section that those forms come from out of the IRS Code which is Title 26, US Code, Section 2204. You look that section up you’ll find out that it tells you very clearly that those functions that are a part of 1099OID are for the fiduciary which would be a government official, not you. Anyway, to order these forms, the official forms, from the IRS you can call 1-800-TAXFORM. They will mail you the scannable forms and other products such as publications. Now, I suggest you get your pencils out and write some of this down tonight because I’m going to give you several publications that go along with this. Before you do this you should read the publications and understand what you’re doing and why you’re doing it and how to do it. When you’re printing these tax forms you should ask for Publication 1141, 1167 and 1179 which are resources for information about printing these tax forms. Now, I’m going to go over the 1099C form and basically what it looks like. On the first line at the top of the form it asks for the creditor’s name and address, city, state and zip code. It asks for the creditor’s federal identification number which might be hard to find. They might not be willing to give it to you. Then it asks for the debtor’s identification number, then it asks for the debtor’s name, debtor street address, debtor city and zip code and the account number. Anyway, that’s the left hand side of the form. Now, these forms off the internet will do you no good whatsoever so don’t get on the internet during the call and try to look the forms up. You got to order the forms. Anyway, in the upper right hand corner it says, cancellation of debt. That’s what this form is for. To the left beside that in a small box it has an OMB number which should mean that this is a legitimate form. What I’ve got in my hand is a 2008 form which is good until March of 2009 and it’s a form 1099C. Box number one wants to know the date that you cancelled the debt. That’s what this form is for, cancellation of a debt. You fill in the date. The amount of the debt cancelled is box two. Box three is any interest if it was included in box 2, whatever portion of the debt was interest. And this has got the new phony dollar sign and then a space to write the dollar amount. Box number five—that was box number three; box number four doesn’t have anything in it—box number five is a debt description, whatever it was—probably a simple thing to do, mortgage, credit card, whatever, IRS tax, whatever debt you’re canceling the description would go there in box five. Box six you check only if it was discharged in bankruptcy and you’re canceling the debt. Box number seven, the fair market value of the property is supposed to be filled in there. Now, like most forms there are several copies of this thing. Copy number A is for the Internal Revenue Service but it has to be the one that is scannable or that’s where you’ll get the fifty dollar fine. And you file it with a form 1096 accompanying it. Now, I haven’t gotten a 1096 yet delivered so I can’t go over that with you. I would suggest that you not only get a 1096 but get the instructions for a 1096 by asking for it if you’re going to jump into doing something like this on any of your debts. There’s a couple of people that are facing foreclosure this month. They might want to jump on this and do this but I’d suggest you get these forms and read these instructions. Get the 2008 general instructions for forms 1099, 1098, 1096, 5498 and W-2G because they may all apply. Copy A apparently goes to the government. Copy B is for the debtor. Now, this is a 1099C form but it’s different copies of it. Copy A goes to the IRS, copy B is for the debtor—that’s your information—and copy C is for the creditor. That’s the only difference. They are duplicate forms other than that and who it says they’re for. Alright, now, there’s instructions to go with this and the instructions seem rather simple. They’re not complicated but I said I don’t have the publication that goes into a longer explanation of some of the things like the 1096 form. But the basic instructions out of the general instructions for the debtor is you may not have to include in income all or a portion of certain qualified principal resident’s indebtedness cancelled in 2008. See publication 525 which is taxable and non-taxable income for more information. If a federal government agency, certain agencies, connected with the federal government, financial institutions, credit unions or an organization having a significant trade or business of lending money such as a finance or credit card company cancels or forgives a debt that you owe of $600 or more this form must be provided to you, generally. If you are an individual you must include all cancelled amounts even if less than $600 on the other income line of form 1040. If you are a corporation, partnership or other entity report the cancelled debt on your tax return. See the tax return instructions for corporations. However, some cancelled debts are not included or fully includable in your income such as certain student loans. See publication 525 again. Certain debts reduced by the seller after purchase. See publication 334. Qualified farm debt, see publication 525. Qualified real property business debt, see publication 334. Or debts cancelled in bankruptcy, see publication 908. Do not report a cancelled debt as income if you did not deduct it but would have been able to do so on your tax return if you had paid it. Now, be careful of that terminology, that’s a little bit tricky. Also, do not include cancelled debts in your income to the extent that you were insolvent. Well, let me tell you something, there’s nobody in America that has any wealth. We’re all insolvent because the money has no value whatsoever in reality; it’s just a piece of paper representing value and that constitutes insolvency. Everything in America from the government on down is insolvent. It is transferred from the government’s insolvency to you by their insolvency currency that’s in circulation. So, we’re all insolvent. So, because of that reason alone you don’t have to include it on a 1040 form. If you exclude a cancelled debt from your income because it was cancelled in bankruptcy or during insolvency or because the debt is qualified farm debt or qualified real property business debt or qualified principal resident’s indebtedness file form 982. Well, I suggest that you didn’t include it and then if you would have to file 982 but I’d get 982 and I’d get the instructions to go along with it and check and make sure because I don’t know your situation and what you’re involved in and what you’ve been doing. So, I can’t tell you what to do. You need to read these publications and figure out how this applies to you before you jump into things like this and start getting yourself in deeper trouble. I can see that this will work to cancel the debt. It will terminate the debt. It will terminate even a tax debt. It’s the government’s form for how to terminate the debt. I’m thinking that maybe on these assignments of interest in the Treasury account this is exactly what we should be doing, filling out this form and accompanying the assignment with this form. I’m not sure yet that we’re going to do that. I need to do a little bit more research into some of these publications that I haven’t gotten yet before I decide for sure but it’s leaning toward doing that. This is there recognizable form that they’re pay attention to. I think Countrywide would have to cancel the debt if you sent this form to them and the IRS would consider it cancelled if you sent Copy A to the IRS. Then, of course, the IRS would be wondering whether or not it would show up on a 1040 and that would be depending upon who and what you are and what you’ve been doing. If you’ve been filing 1040s because you’re in business and that’s a requirement of business if you’ve got a corporation or a benefit of a corporation or a limited liability company or you’re operating through a trust which is a government granted privilege if it’s filed then you would have to file and show this to whatever extent it isn’t exempted by what I just read to you in those publications that I just gave you the names of. So you’ve got to be careful how you do these things. You can’t just jump into these things, fill something out, put your name on it and send it somewhere like a lot of these morons teach people to do. They just get people in a lot more trouble by leading them that way. All they have to do is look these things up and they will find all these publications written by the government explaining how, why and what. And if you’ll check those publications and follow the directions correctly you won’t get yourself in any trouble. Anyway, the next thing is instructions to the creditor. General and specific form instructions are provided as separate products. The products you should use to complete form 1099C are the 2008 general instruction forms for—and I think I read this earlier in the front page—for forms 1099, 1098, 5498 and W2-G and the 2008 instruction forms for a 1099A and 1099C. A chart in the general instructions gives a quick guide to which form must be used to report a particular payment to order these instructions and additional forms. Visit the IRS website at or call 1-800-TAX-FORM. Caution, because paper forms are scanned during processing you cannot file these forms that you download or print off the IRS’ website. That’s the second time I think I said that and it backs up exactly what Dana said a few minutes ago. Now, it goes on as an explanation to the creditor. File Copy A of this form with the IRS by March 2, 2019. This is for the 2008 forms; you can file it as late as March 2nd. If you file electronically the due date is March 31st. To file electronically you must have the software that generates a file according to the specifications in publication 1220, specifications for filing forms 1098, 1099, 5498 and W2G electronically. The IRS does not provide a fill-in-the-form option on the web. So, you still got to order the forms to fill in the proper one. If you need help or have any questions in reporting a 1099C call the information reporting customer service site toll free at 1-866-455-7438. And they give you all kinds of ways here to get the information and to get help. This is for the cancellation of a debt. Now, let’s go back to the form itself for a minute and talk about the cancellation of the debt and why you’re canceling it. One of the things that it did say here in the instructions that I didn’t get into reading. One of the boxes that they explain what to fill in, in each box and one of the boxes is for the amount of the debt cancelled. And it says, ‘note, if you do not agree with this amount contact your creditor.’ Well, I would suggest that you send a copy of the contact with your creditor along with Copy A to the IRS because the amount of your debt is actually zero. Now, you should know this from all of our discussions in the past that they are creating the money from the document that you sign and give them and giving you back the money you’ve created. They’re not actually lending you any money. You’re not being paid any money. It’s created by the signature on the check from the company when it’s deposited in the bank. There is no money in reality. It is just credit in circulation. Because it’s just credit in circulation and there is no real coin or currency of the United States that has any value under House Joint Resolution 192 it required the discharge of all debts dollar-for-dollar. That’s also in accordance with the Fifth Amendment. The Fifth Amendment says the government shall not take private property for public use without just compensation. What are they doing with this money? They’re taking your labor through the taxes on this money and they can’t do that by law but they’re doing it and getting away with it out of the stupidity of education and they’ve been getting away with it for years. Since what, 1942 I think they started this income tax based on the war and everybody fell in line and supported the war and after the war was over they didn’t stop and people just stayed in line and kept doing it, kept paying. They didn’t have to. The government knows that it’s a taking of private property. Maybe some of these IRS working little idiots that are employed by IRS don’t know it. Some of these moron lawyers don’t know it at the lower level. But you get up high enough and they know what they’re doing. And the fact is that there is a discrepancy in the amount of the debt. The amount of the debt is not whatever they’re claiming that it is in dollar figures. The amount of the debt is actually zero and you should write to them and say that I have discrepancy in the amount that you’ve listed as the debt because I know that you created the money from my credit off the document that I signed and you didn’t lend me any money or you didn’t pay me any money because it was created from the signature on the check, either way the situation may be, and that the actual debt is really zero. It is not $287,942 in change or whatever the foolish amount is or 600,000…I was talking to somebody, today, out in California. A house out there that he’s living in—he’s renting it, right now—and a lady wants to sell it. She wants $600,000 for it. And you know darned well that house is not worth $600,000 in real money. But then again, your labor’s not worth $10 an hour in real money much less $20 an hour or whatever you think you’re worth or whatever you think you’re getting. It’s only worth a dollar an hour or so in real money. But imagine having real money again. You’d actually be able to buy a lot of stuff with it because in real money they would have to sell things for what they’re really worth like a bottle of coca cola was a nickel when I was a kid. When I was a kid silver dollars were in circulation. Silver dimes were in circulation and a nickel was made out of nickel and it had an equal value to a dime when you had two nickels because the nickel was worth the same amount that a silver dime was worth. A penny was actually real copper back then. Today, these pennies are not even real copper. Notice they hardly tarnish—they stay shiny. It’s because they’ve got more nickel cadmium in them which isn’t even valuable metal than they have copper. The rest of the coins, today, are nickel cadmium, they’re not silver. There is no silver in circulation. This is why you can’t buy things for the real value. So your debts are not real. Do you understand that? I hope I’m getting this through to you. Your debts are not real whether it’s income tax debt, property tax debt, traffic court debt, credit card debt, mortgage foreclosure debts, any one of these forms of debt, personal loan debts, and kind of this stuff. It’s all the same thing, it’s not real, it’s all phony.

[Dave] Howard, now we’ve got a notice of misprision of perjury of oath of office that’s already been served on every United States Senator, United States Representative in Washington, D.C….

[Howard] For allowing this to happen—right?

[Dave] Well, I’ll read you the first paragraph. You swore an oath to uphold, support, protect and defend the Constitution for the united States of America. That…and enabling contract clearly states that Congress shall coin the money and regulate the value thereof. The American people only authorized that, not bailouts for business incompetents or golden parachute CEOs. Nowhere is Congress authorized to rent at interest the nation’s money supply from a private bank corporation, the Federal Reserve Bank Corporation.

I’m not going to read the rest of it. Anyone who wants a copy of this send an e-mail to and I will e-mail it back or if you have a fax number I’ll fax it to you.

[Howard] And, as a matter of fact, once you get it you should change the name at the bottom and send it on to your local Congressman, both House and Senate, representatives in your state from you. The more people that send something like this the better result we’ll get because it will excite them that too many people are getting to know and understand this. If only one person like Dave sends this one letter to every one of the Congressmen they’ll all throw it in the trash—it doesn’t mean anything. We don’t care about one guy but when they get it from fifty, a hundred, two hundred, five hundred people they start getting rattled. They start realizing…

[Dave] The thing about a notice of misprision being as ninety-five percent of these bastards are lawyers they know once they have knowledge that a crime is being committed and that’s what we’re serving them with is notice that the law is being violated, the supreme law of the land. Now they have to turn each other in. Every one of those representatives and every one of those Senators has to report all the rest of them in for violating the law to the appropriate agency.

[Howard] They won’t. They’re just as wussy as these cops. I just heard a story last night of an incident that occurred in Seattle, Washington. A cop pulled somebody over, made him get out of the car, told him to get down on the ground face down and somebody came along and talked to him and interrupted him and the fellow turned his head and looked up and said something and the cop pulled his gun out right in front of five other cops and shot and killed the guy because he was said something while he was laying on the ground. Now, those five other cops should have immediately arrested that cop and charged him with murder. They didn’t. They’re wusses. They don’t even know what the law means. And we’re dealing with the same kind of morons that are in Congress. They don’t know what the law means and they won’t do anything about this. They haven’t got what it takes—gumption—to do anything about it.

[Dave] Event the State of Delaware representatives down in Dover, Delaware in the State of Delaware, senators, in Dover Delaware, the capitol, we’re serving copies of it on them because the fact that there is no money and now they’re learning that we’ve ratted out all the federal representatives and senators and guess who is next. We’re also serving the State party Chairpeople of all the communist republican party, communist democratic party, the communist libertarian party, the communist populist party and the communist, communist party and any other communist parties in Delaware. They’re all going to get copies of this.

[Howard] You know what, Dave, this kind of stuff is being picked up by these radio talk show commentators and discussed at length.

[Dave] If they want to contact me just send me an e-mail.

[Howard] They don’t need you.

[Dave] They want comments.

[Howard] They don’t want your comment; they don’t need you. They’re saying the same thing that you’ve said in this notice. They’re saying the same thing, Dave. They’re talking about this. They’re exposing this to the entire population that listens to the radio talk shows.

[Dave] Well, we need to fax to those radio talk show people this notice of misprision of perjury of oath of office for them to have some ammunition to back up their talk.

[Howard] That might help to fax a copy of that to them to show them that more can be done than what they’re doing is just talking about it. But they’re talking about this; they’re discussing this at length on their programs. It’s amazing what’s starting to happen along these lines. As this is more and more exposed and more and more people jump on the bandwagon and do these 1099OIDs correctly with banks and government and do these 1099Cs and cancel debts the bigger the problem is going to get for this system and it’s either going to have to correct itself or it’s going to have to close its doors and go away. One of the two is going to happen. I’d prefer to see it correct itself but I’m doubting that, seriously doubting that these type of people that have been doing these things for all these years are going to do anything at all to correct it. They’ll just run when they’ve been caught.

[Norman] Dave, could I say something here?

[Howard] Yeah, go ahead.

[Norman] Norman from Wisconsin. You ran this address about this misprision thing; could you run that by again?

[Howard] Dave, give him the e-mail that he can e-mail for it.

[Dave] Ok, the e-mail is

[Norman] Thank you, Dave.

[Dave] Give me a fax telephone number to fax it to or a e-mail address to return the electronic transcription of it and any radio talk show hosts that want it, give me their fax numbers or their e-mail and I’ll forward it to them—free, no charge.

[Howard] Send him an e-mail with your number on it.

[Norman] Oh, yeah, ok, will do. Thanks, Dave.

[caller] Hi, Howard.

[Dave] It’s Mr. All Rights Reserved.

[Howard] Yeah, go ahead, whoever that was.

[caller] Well, since she’s not Skip can I jump in?

[Howard] Yeah, go ahead.

[caller] Last night I did a panel that was sponsored by I think the government and they paid me very well to come and sit with ten other people and the moderator asked all sorts of questions pertaining to what the public is concerned about. Now, having to do with what’s going on with all the nonsense in Washington so there is a genuine concern as to the unrest that they’re concerned about, i.e., the public getting so disturbed they’re going to withhold any way they can. How about that?

[Howard] I know they’re getting concerned. As a matter of fact I think that’s why we’re having these incidents like these cops shooting this poor person. He got so nervous and so scared that you’re dumb enough to pull the trigger.

[Dave] We’re suggesting that nobody should volunteer to enlist in their military and swear to uphold the Constitution and die doing it when they’re not obeying the law in the first place.

[Howard] Yeah, that’s another good point. Nobody should be volunteering for their military right now.

[caller] Well, you’ll enjoy this because when I went I sat there biting my tongue for a while and finally the moderator asked me to comment so I opened up about—everybody was concerned about the mortgages and what have you and I told that they signed a promissory note and it was fraud and blah, blah, blah and let me tell you I shook the whole group up.

[Howard] I’m sure he did with that kind of information.

[caller] And then I asked, I said, ‘anybody that has a social security number raise their hand,’ and, of course, everybody did. And mind you, the moderator was one smart son-of…guy; it’s a family show—right?

[Howard] Yeah.

[caller] Anyway, everybody raises their hand. I said, ‘well, how about that, did you think you must have a social security number, raise your hand.’ They all raised their hand. I said, ‘shame on you because it’s strictly voluntary—you didn’t have to join.’ And it blew their mind. So, needless to say I shook up the whole panel and I’m sure that caused a great deal of unrest. I still got paid so I walked.

[Howard] Ok, good for you. One of these things that has been brought up by some of these radio commentators and by the way, these radio programs that I’m talking about are syndicated. I’m talking about people like Rush Limbaugh, Neil Bortz, ones like that, that have been on the radio talking about this kind of government stuff for years and they have a reputation and a big following of people that listen to them. Now, everybody doesn’t like each one of them because everybody’s got different opinions because they have very little knowledge so all they can have is an opinion. Some follow them, some don’t, but the ones that follow them have been getting an earful lately. One of the things that brought up an earful was this I think its ….Madoff is his name that swindled a bunch of people out of a tremendous amount of money. What was it, fifty billion dollars or something he’s managed to steal?

[caller] He swindled his friends.

[Howard] Yeah, his own friends, yeah, and business partners and business associates and the government is trying to bring a claim against him that he was operating a Ponzi scheme. So these commentators evidently got a hold of a lawyer or a law book or something and then they looked up what a Ponzi scheme was and they learned how to explain it and they explained it on their radio talk show what a Ponzi scheme was. It’s when you get a bunch of investors together and promise them fantastic returns and every time you get a new investor the old investors all get all the money that came from the new investors and that’s how they get the big returns. And eventually, when you run out of investors and you can’t find any more where there’s no more returns and everybody got screwed out of their money.

[Dave] Social Security is a Ponzi scheme.

[Howard] And that’s exactly the next thing they said. Why would the government bring a claim of a Ponzi scheme against anybody when they’re running the biggest Ponzi scheme in the world called social security. Then they started explaining how social security worked and it works like a Ponzi scheme. They took the money from the generation of the late thirties and through the forties and fifties and gave it to the generation that was born back in the twenties or back in the teens that were old and retired at that time and now when we get up here into the 2000s they’re looking for these kids to come out of college and go to work and get jobs and collect from them as investors so they can pay the war babies that are now getting old and coming through retirement age and wanting to get paid because the war babies’ money was given to their grandparents and parents. And it’s not there for them anymore, it’s what comes in from the new investors, the new people that sign up for social security and pay it today and there’s less of them paying it today so there’s not going to be enough money to pay the war babies because there’s so many of them that will be collecting and so few that are paying in. Gee willigers, this came out on the radio with these commentators explaining it actually more clearly than I just explained it.

[caller] To compound that fracture in addition to what you’ve said which is the truth, in addition to that when there was a residue of money there Congress siphoned it off.

[Howard] Oh, yeah. I made a lot of military personnel mad by telling them that the retired military personnel were actually welfare recipients. ‘Oh no, we aren’t. I said, ‘oh, yes you are; go read what Congress did. They took the military retirement and shifted it over to the social security. Well, it’s now coming out of the general welfare fund of social security. So, you people that retired from the military and think you got a military pension are actually living on welfare money. It’s not the retirement fund that you thought it was in the beginning.’ And oh, that did make them angry but I know I’m right because I looked up the law way back when they did it. They’ve taken that military pension money and used it for something else and then shifted the pensions over to come out of social security so that they could use the social security money for those pensions and have the real pension money for themselves to waste on projects, probably like launching missiles into space, some of this other foolishness that they’ve been doing.

[caller] A final comment if you’ll allow me: After this panel was over which lasted two hours and this guy was really sharp. I hung around and I spoke with him after everybody left and he said, ‘I appreciated what you said but it really disrupted everybody. I don’t think they understood what you were saying.’ I said, ‘I’m sure they didn’t’ but that being said he said, ‘I was looking for anger and nobody showed any anger about being ripped off, about their 401Ks and all these things that have depleted their value as to what they thought they were going to retire on,’ etc. I said, ‘well, it’s my humble opinion that they’re so beat up and they’ve been brainwashed they can’t fight the government and big brother that they’re willing to accept it and roll with the punches.’ He said, ‘you know something, I think you’re right.’

[Howard] And I think it is right that probably ninety percent of the population in this country will just lay back and do nothing about it but let me tell you something about what they are going to do about it.

The government has lost faith, the people’s faith has been badly depleted by what has happened here. Those people won’t do anything like file law suits because… These people are not going to file law suits. What these people will not do is come up and really show their anger. They’re not going to file law suits. There’s somewhere in excess of a hundred people on this conference call almost every Thursday night. I keep talking about filing suits against the government for taking your private property. I got one person in this country that’s willing to follow through—one person and that’s all. People are just not willing—they don’t feel competent to do things like that. They know they can’t get a competent lawyer usually; it’s hard to find one. Maybe you will if you look hard enough but it’s too much work. Most people won’t bother. They’re not going to do anything real effective but I’ll tell you what they are doing. Because they’ve lost faith they’re not participating anymore with government foolishness—just backing off. The filing of 1040 forms at the end of every taxable year has fallen off by thousands year after year after year which means people are just backing out of the tax system—they’re not participating. And this is going to make it even worse. They might still have a half a million people filing tax forms. Well, you watch what happens in the next year or two. They won’t have a hundred thousand left filing tax forms and paying taxes. People will stop participating. That is going to disrupt this system and hurt this corruption more than anything else and if people will learn to do it, a few of these little actions like filing these 1099Cs and canceling debts this will force one thing or another to happen, either, like I said, they will correct the problem and start doing things more properly according to the actual law or they just won’t do anything until the whole thing meets its demise which will be in no more than three years—no more than three years, do you hear me?

The whole system will crumble and it could be any time in the next three years. It’s already crashed if you understood the mathematics of it because the inflation is so high and the collection of revenue is so low the whole thing is already crashed but they can jack it up a little bit with this, that and the other thing and make it appear to the masses that things are still going on. And they still will have some people cooperating but less and less people all the time. And the more angry and more hurt people feel over what’s happened to them the less cooperation they’ll get and slowly the whole thing will meet its demise and it’s destructing from within because of the stupidity of the way they’re running things and doing things. And that’s another thing that these commentators on television, on radio, even the stock market channel commentators, the things that they’re saying and exposing to the people is helping more and more people to realize that we shouldn’t have faith in the government. Larry Cutlow the other night on the stock market channel made a comment about it’s about time that all of these people began to be truthful. Everybody knows that politicians are not truthful but it’s time they started being truthful. I don’t know how many people heard him say that but I’m sure anybody that did had to agree with him, it is time that these people started being truthful. They know that they haven’t been truthful.

[Dave] Somebody could e-mail me his e-mail address or his fax telephone number and I’ll fax him this…

[Howard] Who, Larry Cutlow?

[Dave] Anybody that can get Larry Cutlow’s fax number or e-mail, e-mail it to me and I’ll send him this  notice of misprision of perjury of oath of office.


[caller] He’s got a column in the Washington Times every week.

[Howard] Yeah, he does.

[caller] He’s the closer, here’s the big closer. After I finished my statements that really shook up the panel I said, ‘folks, let me tell you something, I’ve gotten so disgusted with what’s going on I’ve taken myself out of the system. I no longer participate,’ and the moderator lost control of the evening because everybody was asking me questions, ‘how do you do this?’ I relish this.

[Dave] Tell them to go to

[caller] You’re right, David, you’re right, you’re right, you’re right.

[Howard] You should have taken names and phone numbers or addresses or something at that point.

[caller] I gave them my number and told them to call me. Yeah, I couldn’t take the damned thing over because it was somebody else’s show but it was interesting because when I said I took myself out of the system I blew minds.

[Howard] It sounds to me like you took it over despite the fact that you should…

[caller] Yeah, and he was a hell of nice guy, really. I mean he was a bright guy but he knew where I was coming from.

[Howard] Yeah, isn’t it interesting how many people’s minds are starting to function? Instead of being followers they’re actually starting to think a little bit for themselves and not just follow like they’ve been doing for years.

[caller] Yeah, I challenged the hell out of them. I mean….they had to pay me so I challenged the hell out of them and it worked. It worked, it really worked. I got a lot of people thinking, a lot of people….the people there. That could be their rock in the pond.

[Howard] Well, yes.

[caller] If enough people do this.

[Howard] Well, you’re talking about what I’ve been talking about for years, terminating your registration and contracts with the government and stop borrowing money from their banks. Live on what you can make. I haven’t borrowed money from their banks since I learned in 1979 that the bank had crashed. Nobody else seemed to realize the bank crashed—they believe what the news media said. The news media said that the Federal Reserve raised the interest rate and there’s nothing we can do about it. Nobody stopped to think why would they raise the interest rate so high that nobody could borrow money unless they didn’t have any money to lend. Evidently, the banks have crashed. I recognized it and I was just a thirty seven year old young kid. I didn’t have the knowledge then that I got today because I hadn’t studied very deep in any of this stuff. Just common sense told me the banks make money by lending money. They stopped lending money. They must not be making any money. Why would they not make money unless they didn’t have any money to make money from?

[caller] Hold it; only a savings and loan can lend money because the banks are trust companies—they can’t loan the depositor’s money.

[Howard] That’s true but if somebody had a lot of money and they could open up a bank and lend their own money.

[caller] ….and they did away with that because it was too good. The banks didn’t like that; they had competition—right, Howard?

[Howard] That’s right. Yeah, that’s…got their savings and loans back, back in the late seventies.

[caller] They worked.

[Howard] …that I didn’t recognize how this was working any earlier in life was because the loans that I had been making in business and for buying my home and things like that in my early years of life was through savings and loans. It didn’t work the same way. It was actually somebody’s money that they were lending in the savings and loan. It wasn’t working the same way the banks work.

[caller] That’s right because they’re allowed to do that; they’re a different institutions—now, they’re dead.

[Howard] Well, the savings and loans couldn’t lend the depositor’s money either. They could lend their own money. If somebody was wealthy enough to have that kind of money that they could lend out they could set up a bank, a savings and loan bank, and lend money and get a license from government to do it. And that’s what these savings and loans were, it was some wealthy person that had a lot of money that was willing to lend it and, of course, once you lend it and the payments start coming in you’ve got a pile of money coming in that you can re-lend. It goes on and on; it becomes a gigantic business. But the banks weren’t happy that these savings and loans were cutting into them doing their scam. So, they had to stop…

[caller] They had competition, they couldn’t handle it—right. You’re absolutely right.

[Howard] Well, I think we could stop these banks with this 1099C. But I’m telling you before any of you get into it you want to get all those publications and read them and make sure you’re doing this right and make sure we are right. This 1099C fits right in with our secured interest. It fits in with the assignments and it fits in with Rule 901 that we’ve been talking about of the rules of evidence that they do not authenticate the original documents related to the loan whether it’s a credit card loan or a mortgage loan. It also fits in with the rules of evidence that the IRS does not document the tax debt, that the police department does not document and authenticate the claim of the debt for a traffic ticket. It fits all this stuff. We should be able to shut all these things down eventually if the American people are willing to try to learn all across the country. Probably, if twenty-five percent of the population did these things it would shut it all down. We don’t need one hundred percent but it would take at least 25% of the people doing these things, going into traffic court with the 1099C.

Whatever this traffic debt is I’ve canceled it. You can’t proceed—tough—bye. It shut the IRS down real quick doing this on an IRS debt. Now businesses can’t do this. Remember our discussions over the last couple of years about who is a taxable entity and who has to pay taxes. It is not based on private income—private earnings. It is based on privileged earnings. Any business that has a license from government is privileged to be in business. They are required to file the taxes and pay the tax. Any kind of a business license to do something that would have otherwise been unlawful to do which would be handling other people’s property in any way, you can’t handle other people’s property without permission from the government to handle other people’s property. So anything to do with business like that is a privilege granted by government and required the tax to be paid. So people that are in that kind of a business cannot jump on the bandwagon here and not pay taxes and cancel debts. Now there’s certain loan debts that they might be able to cancel but tax debts I don’t think they can cancel because they are the liable party. But if you just work for some company that’s private—that’s a private contract between you and the company. If you’re not the officer of the corporation that has been privileged to operate under the corporation and make money then you’re not the taxable party under the law.

Congress was only given the authority in the Constitution to impose taxes upon imposts, duties and excises. Imposts and duties have to do with imports and exports. If you’re not in that line and very few people are then the only other one would be excises. Excises means privileges. Congress can tax any privilege that Congress can create and give to you. The states admit right in their tax codes that they are a rider on the federal tax program. So they come under the same restriction then because they’re riding on the same program of taxation. So they can tax privileges that they create such as corporations and LLCs and trusts that are registered and requested to be a privilege to operate under from the government and licenses of any kind. I don’t mean a driver’s license unless it’s a CDL license for transport of other people’s goods or transport of passengers which is what driving is all about. Other than that any licensed function that you ask the government to be involved in puts you in a taxable category. Most cases you didn’t have to ask for the license because there’s only certain things government can really require you to have a license to do and that’s alcohol, tobacco, firearms and securities and gambling. If you got a gambling hall it’s supposed to be licensed. If you’re a doctor and you push drugs then you got to have a license. If you got a bar business and you push alcohol or you manufacture alcohol or you manufacture drugs those are the kind of people that have to have the license to do those things. The government claims to have a right to regulate such things because they’re hazardous to the entire population including the public workers.

[Dave] Or if you’re a snake oil salesman called a preacher.

[Howard] Yep. Yeah, but preachers, they wrote an exemption in there for preachers that they don’t have to pay the tax. They got them in under the regulatable part of the category but not under the taxable category. That’s why they tell the preachers what they can preach and they won’t let them preach anything that they don’t want them to tell the people about. They regulate them; they keep them under control but they don’t tax the preachers much, if at all, unless the preacher has a source of income outside of the church business. The church business is exempt under, what is that, 501(c)(3). But they’re regulatable. Even though they’re not taxable they’re regulatable. But private income does not come under those tax categories at all. That constitutes a taking of your private labor and your money that you made with your labor for a public purpose without just compensation. And I know darned well you’re not willing to get into a law suit because it’s rather involved. So just cancel the debt; they’ve given us a form. I’m glad somebody told us about this because I had never come upon any information about a 1099C. I’ve seen a 1099A and I really didn’t know what to do with it because that’s for the creditor to fill out. The 1099C is for the debtor to fill out. So if the debtor starts filling it out and canceling all these debts the whole system is going to be in bigger trouble than it’s in now. I still recommend, though, if you want to live in this system, if you want to keep up your credit, do not become involved in these things if you can afford to pay the debt—keep paying them—if that’s what you want. Don’t start something that you can’t control and handle because you may lose if you don’t understand well enough how to argue some of these things. But when we get to court we’re learning a whole lot more on these rules of evidence and what can be done under the rules of evidence to force the party complaining that there’s a debt due to produce evidence to prove the debt.

And the deeper I read into these rules—there’s been a lot of discussion about the original instrument, the one with the live signature on it. You don’t have to have that. There’s a waiver for it under the rules. But if they have a photocopy of it somebody with knowledge of the original instrument has to sign an affidavit stating that this copy is a true and correct copy of the original and they don’t and can’t do that because there isn’t anybody anymore around that knows of the original. The original’s been deposited. Once it was deposited it’s gone. There’s nobody around that has any knowledge of it except the one who did deposit it and that person isn’t going to step forward and admit that it was deposited. So nobody else has knowledge that can sign an affidavit stating that this photocopy is a copy of the actual original because they have first hand knowledge of the original. So a lawyer would have to write the affidavit and his affidavit would be hearsay and he would be perjuring himself because he doesn’t have first hand knowledge and you got that lawyer in a real bad situation when you discover that. And it’s not hard to discover because all you got to do is look at your paperwork from the court that he’s not in or go to the court and get a copy of anything that he filed in the court and you’ll get your evidence of his perjury.

First of all, a lawyer wasn’t there when the transaction took place. How could he know about it? He doesn’t have first hand knowledge. He wasn’t there. The debt collection lawyer is a different lawyer than the settlement lawyer that you may have used. A government lawyer might have been there at the right time but he’s not the one doing the debt collection. The one doing the debt collection is some guy that’s come into the picture at the last minute here acquiring the job of collecting the debt. He has no first hand knowledge of anything and if he writes an affidavit stating that the debt is due and owing and they usually do then he’s perjured himself because he doesn’t have first hand knowledge. And if you object to the case proceeding any further until they present authenticated evidence which means backed up by an affidavit. It has to be authenticated, signed under penalty of perjury that this is a true and correct document, either the original true and correct or a true and correct copy of the original. There has to be this affidavit authenticating the document to prove the case. If they can’t prove the case you should be objecting that they can’t proceed until they do prove it because the burden of proof is upon the complaining party and it remains upon him throughout the trial although if you allow it to go into a trial sometimes the burden of proof shifts to you on certain parts of it because of what goes on in the trial. But it always shifts back to them to have proven what they were claiming from the beginning and they have to come up, according to the rules of evidence, they have to come up with this authenticated document. When they don’t then they can’t proceed but they will and they do if you don’t object. So, you not only have to say you object but you have to explain what I just said. The rules of evidence are in the court rule books in every state’s code book. And they are available in court libraries in the basement of the court, usually, or law school libraries in the area where you’re located and all you have to do is go to the library and look them up and some of these codes are actually on the computer from some of the states and you can find some of it on the computer but be warned, the computer has been sanitized. They only put out the little bit that they want known by everybody. They hide a lot of stuff and leave it off the computer, it’s not all there so it’s still best to go to the library. And the librarians will help you—ask and they will help you. They’re usually very nice people. I not only found them to be very nice but I also found out that a lot of them are paralegals and they work for lawyers on cases while they’re doing their job as a librarian because a librarian really has nothing to do but sit there and wait for you to come in and ask a dumb question so that they can tell you where to find the book that you’re looking for. And if there’s nobody coming to them they got nothing but time on their hands so they use that time to put their research together and make up the briefs for the lawyers that they work for. And I started talking with one of them at the University of Maryland Law Library one day and she said, ‘you sound like you know a little bit about some of this. I got a case here and I’m baffled what to do with it.’ She showed me the case and I told this nice little lady where to find the information she needed in her library because I’d been there and done that. It just happened to be a stroke of dumb luck that I had been into that research and I told her where to find it and how to put this together for this kind of a case. And from then on anything I asked about in that library she went out of her way to help me find what I was looking for—very, very nice to me because I helped her.

Alright, I don’t want to get any deeper into this 1099C because I’m still looking into this and waiting for those other publications. I will talk about more of it as I learn more from those publications in the next couple of weeks but no matter how much I talk about it or how much I learn you should get the publications and you should read them over and if you find something and correct my thinking please do so.

If you find something that shows that I’m not saying it the right way let me know. I don’t mind being corrected. Dana, this is something I would like you to look into particularly with your friends in the IRS, your retired IRS friend, I should say. See what you can find out from him about 1099Cs, how they’re used, who’s allowed to use them, what the normal procedure is with them, whatever he says about it because he might point us to something that will make us realize that we shouldn’t be doing this or this is really what we should be doing—one or the other.

[Dan] Howard, this is Danny in Texas.

[Howard] Yeah, Danny, how are you?

[Dan] I’m doing alright. That 1099A is abandonment, isn’t it?

[Howard] Yes, that’s abandonment.

[Dan] And I’m not sure I’m understanding exactly how that would be used. Who’s abandoning the property, you or them?

[Howard] They’re abandoning the debt and the bank fills that out, sends a copy to the IRS and sends you a copy. They’ve abandoned the debt and it is considered to be a profit to you because you didn’t have to pay the debt. Now, under a 1099A you have to file on your 1040 form and show that this amount of money that was forgiven in the debt is a profit to you and you got to pay taxes on it. That’s what the abandonment 1099A is for.

[Dan] Alright, now I just had a friend that used that Tuesday, I believe it was, in a traffic situation and the clerk said she’d have to go get the judge so she did and the judge—she was a lady—she gave them a look that would kill a dog and left the building for about ten minutes and returned and gave them another look that would kill two dogs and they accepted the 1099A for paying for the ticket.

[Howard] Well, I think we can either abandon the debt or we can cancel the debt depending upon which form we might use. We might be able to use the 1099A on situations like that better than the 1099C but on debts like credit card collection and mortgage collection, foreclosures, and automobile debts and things of that nature I think the 1099C is what fits because you have to cancel the debt that you’ve created by the paperwork but show as I explained a few minutes ago that the debt is not correct that’s on line 4.

[Dan] Right, it should actually be zero.

[Howard] It should actually be zero because no money was actually loaned. Now, there’s a book that’s a little hard to find that really explains this in its entirety. It’s called The Law of Fraudulent Transactions. It’s in the libraries on the shelf. It’s written by Peter Alsys[sp?] a professor of law of the University of Alabama Law School.

[Dan] Yeah, I think I have that.

[Howard] And he explains in there very clearly that there has not been a legitimate loan made in this country since 1933.

[Dan] That’s correct.

[Howard] Since the gold was confiscated or surrendered by the stupid American people that gave up their gold and the people allowed the government to just shut the gold down and not continue to coin it and from then on there was no legitimate loans made because the paper is not a legitimate money. It’s a money; anything can be money. If you look at the laws any government can choose anything to be money but that doesn’t make it legitimate. It has to have substance to be legitimate. Paper doesn’t have substance. And just think about this, think about what silver coins were. A dime was, what, about a half inch in diameter and it was silver and a quarter was about three-quarters of an inch in diameter and a little bit thicker and it was actually 2.5 times the weight of a dime.

[Dan] Weights and measures.

[Howard] It was actually worth twenty-five cents and a half a dollar was five times a dime. And a silver dollar was ten times the weight of a dime and it was bigger around and thicker. It was about an inch and a half, inch and three-quarters in diameter and it was almost a sixteenth of an inch thick whereas a dime was less than a sixty-fourth of an inch thick. So, actually, this was all based on weights and measures. The bigger the weight the more value there was. Now, let’s talk about paper dollars. They have one-dollar paper notes and they have five-dollar paper notes and they have ten-dollar paper notes and twenty-dollar paper notes and fifty-dollar paper notes and a hundred-dollar paper notes and they all measure exactly five and three-quarter inches across by three and a quarter inches high and they’re all just a {actually laminated} thin piece of paper the same thickness. How could one of them be more valuable than another one? How could a twenty be twenty times more valuable than a one when they’re the same identical piece of paper? There’s no weights and measures, is there? There’s no real value then, is there? It’s a representation of some kind of value but it’s not the real value.

[Dan] The only thing that makes it work is the confidence of the people.

[Howard] Exactly. And the Federal Reserve Bank wrote a pamphlet called Modern Money Mechanics way back in the forties and they said exactly that, ‘the only thing that makes this money work is the confidence that people have in it.’ And isn’t this what I’ve just talked about earlier about the stock market. As long as people have faith, belief, that they’re going to make something out of it and can get something with what they make they’re going to keep playing with it. {02:00:45.868}

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